Ian Landsman is Starting From Scratch, January 9, 2008:
Yikes!
If you're in the market for a powerful and user friendly Help Desk solution, please take a look at my company's flagship product HelpSpot.
I don’t know about this (more from the owner). I think I’d rather keep paying for NetNewsWire than have to go through opting out of all their undercover “attention” gathering. Not so much for myself, but for all the other users out there who will download it having no idea they’ve opted into something like this by doing so.
Seems awfully sleazy for a group of really good guys. Though Nick denies this in his post it sort of sounds like the beginning of the downward slide of Newsgator. I mean if you could charge money wouldn’t you? I guess selling the data to the highest bidder or perhaps using it to build some meta site might make a few bucks, but you’re moving from a clean, clear, well known business model to a fuzzy one of finding uses for “attention data”.
Discussion
Meh. It's not really that sleazy. It's anonymous, generating information about what feeds are being read the most and viewed the longest. It's no more creepy than Neilson is for TV ratings.
Created by TimS on 01.09.2008 4:38 pm
You can keep sending us a check.
Ian, I think it would be good to take a second to review the FAQ we posted because we anticipated the privacy issue. First and foremost, we rewrote our privacy policy to clearly state what data we are collecting and how we are doing it. We're not trying to bait-and-switch anyone here.
We have a clear opt-out option and if you don't want to sync at all with the online service, you can turn that off as well. Do both and you will be running completely standalone and still get to enjoy the market leading application. We would rather you not because the attention data is intended to power new features that we believe will be useful to all of our users.
We're not even selling data, we're using it ourselves. We don't put advertising on in our products or services either, so rather than being a "sleazy move" or the beginning of a "downslide" this is an investment in our future products and our users are the ones who are primarily benefiting as a result.
As TimS pointed out, there are other precedents for this. Indeed it is much like how search engines work, they anonymize search requests and result behavior to improve the quality of their results over time.
Secondly, yes we can and have charged $ for these apps but we made a decision to make it easier to more broadly seed the market and drive our enterprise software business, where we charge $$$$$ for server applications. These same enterprise customers have been the most vocal in asking for feed discovery and post relevancy features.
But like I said, we respect your right to not want anything to do with this and we'll still give you the application for free. If you have to send us a check, we'll gladly cash it to fund our lunch room.
Created by Jeff Nolan on 01.09.2008 5:45 pm
First I'm not saying it's illegal or even unethical what's being done. I'm saying it's sleazy, perhaps "icky" would be a better word. When you go from selling a product with value to trading on meta information that transition feels icky.
Also, the standard for these type of things is "opt in" and you know it. Opt out is icky. This is why it's nothing like Neilson which is clearly opt in.
Jeff, saying read your privacy policy is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Come on nobody reads privacy policies.
How about instead of being sleazy you put at the top of this page (http://www.newsgator.com/Individuals/NetNewsWire/Default.aspx) that we'll be collecting your information in aggregate rather than hiding it in the privacy policy.
I'd also say that you're not doing a great job representing your company. Throwing out snotty lines on blogs when you know this type of move is likely to raise some eyebrows makes the entire thing worse and more SLEAZY. It would have been much nicer if you came on here and stated your case rather than make snide comments about funding your lunch room.
Created by Ian on 01.09.2008 6:02 pm
Ian,
I did state my case:
- there is a clear opt-out, not one but two and nothing is handicapped in the products as a result
- we're not selling any data, we are using the data ourselves to drive product features
- this move isn't about consumer product economics but about feeding growth in a business where we do generate both significant revenue and margin, enterprise software.
Apparently this is a case you will not accept.
Insofar as the norm being opt-in, that's just simply not supported by precedent or fact. Is search metadata opt-in? How about Facebook or Netvibes (well I guess it is by virtue of the fact that you sign up for an account, same as us)? Session cookies aren't opt-in.
If you wish to engage in a debate about representing oneself well you might start with beginning this by suggesting we are sleazy and at the beginning of a downward slide. Surely you could not have expected a positive first impression from that? If you want to suggest a better way to present the privacy information, why not begin with that instead of waiting until someone who might actually be offended says something?
Simply put, I don't take well to being called sleazy, or icky for that matter. I take pride in the fact that we have done something few companies would have done, invest in a portfolio of products that are generating meaningful revenue and make them all free. It is neither sleazy nor icky, it is a risk that we are taking because we believe there is something bigger we can achieve with these products.
Created by Jeff Nolan on 01.09.2008 6:43 pm
Hmm... I love NNW, but i'm not sure I like it collecting data by default, so I can see Ian's point. However, what Newsgator is doing doesn't seem any different than, let's say, Google's Reader or gmail or a number of other web services that use your data for their profit in exchange for a free service.
While I think its unfortunate that NNW is going this direction, sorry Jeff, I'm a privacy buff who would rather give you cash than my usage data, I certainly understand it and expect you'll be successful at it.
As for me though, it means finding a new feed reader. Even if I can opt out, I'd rather give my money and product loyalty to a company invested in product development, not data mining. If your revenues are determined by the quality of your data it means that over time the products will reflect your need to get data, not your need to provide me with a cutting edge feed reader. And yes, those are two different things.
Created by Les on 01.09.2008 7:21 pm
It's not a matter of if I accept it. I accept it fine, doesn't mean I have to like it. My main issue is that I primarily know your company via Brent and Nick. Two people I have extremely high admiration for. Since those are probably the two biggest faces of your company out here it comes off as bad that they're associated with this type of thing which lead to my sleazy impression.
Not that they or anyone in your company is sleazy, but that it doesn't feel like the right move for those guys to be involved in. Obviously, they're just employees and need to go along with whatever the head guys say.
Personally when people have said bad things about my product anywhere online (or off for that matter) I go out of my way to engage them. Not with snide remarks as the first line of my comments, but rather I attempt to address their concerns. Personally I'd be rather ashamed if I was you that this comment thread is going to be out here forever with your name on it. Not exactly a shining example of great customer service to someone who's been a customer for years.
Created by Ian on 01.09.2008 7:21 pm
Well said Les. I think it's different that Google Reader in that GR didn't start out as a tool you purchased as a desktop product and then they switched it up on you. You knew what it was going in. I've been using NNW since near it's inception, there's a lot of trust there which in one swoop is out the window.
I know free is the new buzz word and all, but I think there's more to great software than being free.
Created by Ian on 01.09.2008 7:25 pm
Yeah, I'm a NNW user since the early betas. I suppose I'm not as upset because I've, perhaps cynically, expected this since NNW was sold to Newsgator years ago. I was happy for Nick, still am, but sad because I knew it was likely the beginning of the end for NNW. At least the NNW I loved years ago.
If nothing else, this shows just how drastically Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, and other "services providers" have changed the nature of privacy. A few years ago a company would not dare to make such an announcement as a positive feature that should be trumpeted.
"Hey, we're tracking you? Isn't that wonderful! Here's a free shiny!"
I blame Hotmail 
Of course, its a legit way to make money, just not one I support. Perhaps its time to give Newsfire a real look.
Created by Les on 01.09.2008 7:39 pm
Just FYI, I asked Brent about this directly on his posting about NNW going free.
So far I can't find any explanation of how to opt-out in NNW and what, if any, features I'll lose out on.
Jeff, on the off chance you're still following these comments, as I told Brent, I sincerely wish this had been optional. I wish I could have continued paying for NNW and receive full functionality instead of only offering a free version that data mines me.
Created by Les on 01.10.2008 11:24 am
Great comment over there Les, looking forward to the response.
I agree, I don't understand why you wouldn't keep selling it with privacy intact and offer a free version with all the data mining junk in it (and whatever else they add down the road).
Created by Ian on 01.10.2008 11:34 am
Les and Ian: unless I'm really, really wrong, these products haven't changed at all. They were doing the same data mining when you paid for them as they are now. You could opt out then as you can now. Nothing has changed, except that now they've decided that the mined data is more valuable than the sale price, and that making the product free would get it into the hands of a much larger group, effectively providing them with a metric assload more data about attention.
The products have not changed, simply the monetization of the products.
Having said that, it's going to rock the RSS reader market, to be sure, and it will become much harder to make a living writing RSS readers.
Created by TimS on 01.10.2008 12:02 pm
Are you serious Tim? Does this mean Newsgator has been handing out the URLs of my protected feeds to 3rd parties ever since they merged? What makes you say this?
Created by Les on 01.10.2008 12:07 pm
Double Yikes!
Don't worry Les I'm sure it was all clearly laid out in their privacy policy.
Created by Ian on 01.10.2008 12:09 pm
I actually never used the syncing until a few weeks ago when I tried their iphone reader. I've since turned it off. Hopefully they weren't actually sending data back with syncing off, but who knows I guess.
Created by Ian on 01.10.2008 12:11 pm
To the best of my knowledge, FeedDemon (at least) has been gathering attention information. I am assuming (perhaps inaccurately) that their other products have been doing the same, given their change to a data-oriented money model. FeedDemon's "Popular Topics" system uses global attention data, doesn't it?
Created by TimS on 01.10.2008 2:03 pm
Brent responded and explained how things worked. He's also going to prevent NNW from sending protected feeds along with "attention data" (how I hate that term).
It still leaves me iffy but at Brent's answer was good enough for now.
But I'm having fun checking out RSS readers. Vienna and NewsLife look very interesting!
Created by Les on 01.10.2008 2:36 pm
That sounds pretty good. I love Brent! Wish he was still on his own (though I can't blame him for cashing out).
Created by Ian on 01.10.2008 2:44 pm