Betrayed by BOS Forums
If you're in the market for a powerful and user friendly Help Desk solution, please take a look at my company's flagship product HelpSpot.The Business of Software forums hosted over on www.joelonsoftware.com have been a great resource for me. I've participated there for about 2 years and I've learned a bunch from the group of ISV's who participate on that forum. I also feel I've added a good deal to the quality of the discussion there and with it's rise as a top resource for small ISV's. That's why I feel betrayed by the moderators of BOS today.
Over the past few months the quality of BOS has gone down as ISV spammers have taken to posting links for their half finished products. These links are almost always by people who don't otherwise participate and are pretty transparent attempts to simply drive traffic to their sites.
I wondered if I was the only one feeling this way, so I posted a thread (cached version) asking for these spam posts to stop so that the forum could return to it's previous quality discussion without all the spam noise. I wasn't ranting, but in fact offered several suggestions including moving the "review" posts to a new forum on BOS or to an existing link site which joelonsoftware is affiliated with. An energetic discussion ensued where most people agreed with my position. Even Eric Sink a forum moderator and ISV guru agreed.
So I was surprised this morning when the thread, which had 22 posts on saturday still had 22 today. I remembered that the BOS forums will hide moderated posts from all but those who originally posted so I headed over to proxify to check the site from a remote server. I was extremely saddened to find that it had in fact been removed. You can see the image below, the post should be between 'Formal Documention Process Document Templates' and (ironically) 'uISV Needs Review of Revamped Site'.
It appears that the spammers have more rights on the BOS forums than someone who has actively participate for several years and who was simply posting a comment to improve the experience.
I'm not sure where to go from here. BOS feels like a part of my business having been such an important part of my learning process. Perhaps it's time to move on or start a new forum where the spammers don't have more rights than the true participants.
Update: Wow, looks like the stars must be aligned. Dharmesh comments below that he's started a new forum which is an alternative to BOS. Especially attractive is that he'll be approving all posters. While I normally don't like that feature in general, I think in this particular case it's exactly the type of thing I'm looking for. A slightly more exclusive forum where everyone knows everyone. If you're interested you can check it out here: http://onstartups.com/
Update 2: Thread is live again... Thanks Bob/Eric. I think it's the right thing. As I've been saying all along I just want BOS to be the best it can be. I truly am too lazy to find someplace else to congregate if I can help it
Discussion
Oh Ian, you don't think "betrayed" might be a bit strong?
I deleted the thread. The fact is that we delete ALL posts on the forum which are about the forum itself. I let your post go for a day, simply because I agreed so strongly with you.
Thanks for posting what several other people wanted to say but did not. Your post got deleted, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worthwhile. I think your post is going to end up serving its purpose, which is to trigger changes which improve the quality of the forum.
Created by Eric Sink on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
"...and John Topley who mostly replies with flames…it’s certainly an interesting crew"
That's BS, Phil and a cursory glance at posts made by me proves it. I moderate the Design of Software forum and visit there throughout the day and most evenings too. Hardly missing in action.
I leave the other moderators to their own forums although I do delete obvious spam on the main board, in line with the instructions that Joel gave me when he made me a moderator. Incidentally, I was made a moderator because I posted something to the Design forum and thought it had been deleted, so ranted about it in Off-Topic. Then it was explained to me by Mark Taw that my post was actually being held for moderation along with some others. Next, Joel contacted me to say that they were desperately short of moderators for Design and asked if I'd be interested in doing it. I agreed because I've gain a lot from reading JoS and wanted to give something back.
Meta posts about the forum and anonymous posts get deleted because that's Fog Creek's policy and they provide the forums. It's quite simple.
Created by John Topley on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
My biggest issue is really centered around the "drive-by" posters. These are the folks that you've never seen before, leave a post asking for advice/guidance/review of their site/product and then are never seen or heard from on the thread again.
Though I can understand the value of openness, it would be nice to at least know how many posts a given user has made and what they have "contributed" to the community. As it stands, BoS makes it almost too each to change names/aliases/pseudonyms with each post.
But, I'm a little biased now with the OnStartups.com forums (which had a decent number of people register today).
Candidly, I too would rather have a single community that addressed the need (instead of having two). Lets see how it goes...
Created by Dharmesh Shah on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
Helena, I don't think you fit what I've been saying. The design forum is certainly a better place to post such a link. Also, my point was never that these links should not be allowed, simply that they should have a home outside of the BOS forum. The design forum or a "review" forum would both work fine.
Created by Ian on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
Oh, I feel this post is partly directed at me. I am one of those people who asked for suggestions about my site a while ago (though I asked on the Design forum - that seemed to be the logical place). I have read the forums for years, and sometimes posted when I had something to say. I never posted with my real name though. When I needed feedback on my site, the JOS forum seemed the best place to ask. It is the only programmer's forum I attend(ed).
I can understand that you think it is spamming, but it is just incredibly valuable to get the opinion of intelligent people, and I assumed that the people who reply like giving their advice (I know that I do, on topics that I am knowledgeable about).
I think the suggestion for a separate forum for review requests is useful, but I do not quite understand the hostility towards these requests.
I think I got about 70 one-time visitors from the JOS forum. I got more visitors from a single blog comment on a relevant blog. If I were just looking for visitors, I would have directed my energy elsewhere.
Created by Helena on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
Just wanted to add my 2-cents by sharing experience (Note that I haven't been following BoS for some time hence don't know how it's been evolving lately).
About a year ago, just before I officially released appTranslator, someone (i don't know who) anonymously started a thread about it, praising my product.
Replies fell immediately : "Go spam your product somewhere else you moron!". Great! Product not released yet and I'm already seen as a spammer :-(
I immediately e-mailed Joel and his reaction was _immediate_: Not only he deleted the negative replies by self-appointed moderators (wording is his), but he also left a very nice comment about appTranslator (it appears he had given it a look earlier).
What started as a nightmare eventually turned down as my favorite testimonial to date 
Created by Serge Wautier on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
Thanks Eric... I think. I'm not sure how I was supposed to feel given that I've posted hundreds if not thousands of posts on there. In my mind that should give me a little tiny bit of leeway, especially on an issue that many others agree is out of control. In any event, I appreciate you and Bob getting together and creating some clear standards and I hope to continue participating in BOS and other new forums that may take root.
Created by Ian on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
I was disappointed when I saw the thread missing this morning too. I'm glad to see it back and I hope to see some of the gratuitous "review my site!" threads quietly disappearing into the recylcing bin.
Created by Keith Casey on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
Doug: Agreed on the URL being unwieldy (and the signup process is being cleaned up too).
New URL that should work as soon as DNS propagates:
http://forums.onstartups.com
Eric: I was hoping to use this window of opportunity to have a chance at pulling in some BoS users for my new site. Going up against Joel and BoS is now small feat. 
But seriously, great to see you responding to the issues and I continue to be a fan.
Created by Dharmesh Shah on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
I would like to enter a plea on these charges:
On the charge of being too busy: guilty as charged. Please go easy on sentencing.
On the charge of deleting Ian's thread when I probably should not have. Guilty. We have restored it. But we still don't want to become a forum where people mostly talk about the forum.
On the charge of allowing too many of these quasi-spammy website reviews: Guilty, I suppose. This is a slippery slope, and the situation got away from us.
On the charge of running a forum where "spammers have more rights than the true participants": Innocent, and I somewhat resent the accusation.
Bottom line: Ian, you obviously got pretty upset that we deleted your thread. My apologies. Whatever offense you took was not intended. We just didn't want the flame war to get out of hand.
But you catalyzed some good changes. Bob Walsh and I spoke this afternoon and confirmed that we're on the same page about deleting these website review spams in the future. We'll be posting some new forum guidelines later today.
Having said all that, bon voyage and best wishes to onstartups.com and any other similar forums.
Created by Eric Sink on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
Thanks for the post Phil, glad to see it's not just me.
Hadn't heard of crazyontap.com, seems like a pretty all over discussion. smallbizgeeks.com looks better, but waaaay to many forums. I hate having to dig all over to see what's up. That's one of the best parts about BOS was being able to see everything all at once. Up until recently most topics were at least mildly interesting.
Created by Ian on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
Ian, I was almost going to blog on this myself (I still may), this has been typical of the BoS forums as of late. It started a little before ?off was killed, and the theme has carried through. Instead of letting common sense rule the day, the mostly absentee moderators delete extremely interesting threads with no explanation quite often, and leave the spam and trolls alone.
Despite Joel's forums being some of the best on the web, he continues to pick moderators based on some weird criteria that exists only in his head. He picks Eric and Bob, who are great guys, but lets face it, probably some of the busiest people on the forum and have the least time to dedicate to approving/deleting threads. Then the main JoS forum has LiFan and Steven Jones who are good posters but have been MIA in the forums for the past year. Finally Albert Kallal, who writes entire stories as posts, and John Topley who mostly replies with flames...it's certainly an interesting crew. But the worst part is their absence from the forums leaves posts unapproved for a long time, and "things that should be deleted" there way too long.
While Eric "followed the rules" by letting a conversation go for so long, a discussion had been created. Deleting it all of a sudden seems completely ridiculous. Most of the old school quality posters from JoS have moved on to crazyontap.com, which is a decent site for posting but is too NSFW. smallbizgeeks.com is a pretty good forum however. Sorry to rant in your comments, but this has touched a nerve lately, and deletions like this are just making more good posters leave, which i imagine is the opposite of the rules original intent. If 37signals or some other site that has a large volume of quality posters creates a forum, i'd jump ship.
Created by Phil on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
http://onstartups.com/Home/SiteLogin/tabid/5199/mid/6078/toreg/+/Default.aspx
Created by Doug Martin on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
Link to forums only shows up post-registration and approval (I'm frantically working to get everything up and running). The forums are ready to go, just have to smoothen out the signon process.
For now, new members simply need to "register" to the site (I then approve then and they then see the "Forums" link at the top).
Created by Dharmesh Shah on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
Perfect! I couldn't find the link to the forums though. Am I just missing it or is it not up yet?
Created by Ian on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
Ian,
As fate would have it, today marks the day that I'm announcing a new forum as an alternative to BoS (with a different approach).
You can see details here: http://onstartups.com
The OnStartups site does not get near the traffic as BoS (but it's still decent and growing). Perhaps it can become a userful resource for those that are getting frustrated with BoS a bit.
Would love to have you participate.
Cheers,
Dharmesh
Created by Dharmesh Shah on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
That's funny. I just replied to a post by someone complaining about a really bad interview and that thread was deleted as well. It was in the 'Joel on Software' forum. I wonder if the OP was referring to FogBugz as the company he had the bad interview with.
Created by cipher on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
Thanks for replying Eric. Actually I don't think it's too strong. I'm a long time participant and I feel strongly about the community there.
If you agreed with it then you should have let it stand. If you felt the need to delete it and were going to work with the other moderators to respond to it's call then you should have posted a new thread saying so rather than simply hiding the topic.
Created by Ian on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm
For those watching this thread, I am happy to announce that the OnStartups community is growing pretty well.
There are now about 200 registered members and over 200 posts in the community. Quality of postings and discussion is pretty good and I would argue that the noise-to-signal ratio is lower than BoS.
Feel free to stop by: http://onstartups.com
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Created by Dharmesh Shah on 05.01.2006 12:05 pm